The way I think about any part of the war against Gaza/Hamas/whatever is that there can be no peace without security against attack. That can happen in many ways--through peace treaties, through working toward common goals, though building community, though allies--but all require a willing partner, which Hamas is not--not to mention Hezbollah and the other clowns in the terrorist car--and the rest of the world makes Israel the Jew of the nations. Is invading Gaza City a good idea? I have no idea. If it results in quicker peace for all, more security, and fewer deaths in the long run, sure. But it's always "compared to what?" and we don't have a comparison. We only have the hope that this course will work. Netanyahu is a terrible person, but that fact is not actually relevant to this. Neither would his being a good person.
All of which is to say that I can neither applaud nor condemn this. I don't know enough and war is, by definition, not about morality, but about survival.
But what I really found interesting was your exploration of the power of the group--the Solomon Asch work. During the 1950s, a number of sociologists and social-psychologists worked on the question of why good people do very bad things, sparked by the actions of ordinary Germans during the Shoah. Asch's work was part of that--the power of the group. So was Milgrom's obedience to authority. So was Erving Goffman's work on micro-interactions.
What you describe is so deeply relevant to everything we are living through--not only as Jews, but in this increasingly authoritarian country. And there is another problem--somethings those who stand up are heard and people say "thank you." And sometimes they are shunned and rejected. Aside from the personal pain, if one is trying to effect change, that rejection can make things worse. So speaking out so that the people claiming a wrong length can see the line's actual length is tricky.
Anyway, thanks for this--it was terrific food for thought on two subjects that have been very much on my mind.
Thank you. I have been feeling so exiled from any and all of the communities where i once felt at home. so alone. But you have articulated what is in my heart.
Yes, Elissa! I agree with you 100%! So does my husband Jeff Olenick. So that means we agree with you 200%! Every single word. You are far from alone. Thank you so much!
The idea that Israel drives international Jew-hatred is absurd and makes my head explode. What, were things so wonderful for Jews before 1948? Israel is an excuse for Jew-haters, not the cause of their hatred.
Elissa, I'm one of your 98% people, in that I agree with you 98% of the time. So here's one of my 2% disagreements. To say, " I don’t believe for a moment that I’m qualified to call the shots for Israel" doesn't make sense to me. An anti-Zionist could say, "I feel neutral about Oct 7 because I'm not in Gaza and don't believe I'm qualified to judge Hamas and its tactics." Of course, we can have opinions, no matter where we live. And while I agree with your points that no other country is discussed as "delegitimized," I think it's appropriate to have an opinion about an action in which one country is forcibly transferring the entire population of another country's largest city. There's so much evidence that Netanyahu has been prolonging this war for personal reasons and, also for personal reasons, giving into the agenda of the far right in his government. Finally, as Americans who basically fund this war with our tax dollars, why should we not have an opinion about this devastating new chapter?
The thing is, what should Netanyahu do now instead? Withdraw, leave Hamas in place, and greenlight another cycle of spending billions to rebuild before the next round? I know Hamas is weakened now, but it will recoup if left in control.
I side with 2.5 million Israelis who want the war to end. I'm not sure there's any way to completely defeat Hamas, but even so, most of their top people have already been killed. How many more civilians in Gaza will be killed, displaced or malnourished to defeat an enemy that I'm not sure is defeatable? How long can we support the policies of Netanyahu and the right wing of his govt? What becomes of these people when Jared Kushner creates the Riveria on the Mediterranean?
America gets “delegitimized” all the time. The far right may be triggered by “CRT”, the 1619 Project, etc. . But, it’s all true and it won’t be erased.
The man who commented on your Facebook post is right. When people are subjected to mass, militarized forced migration, whether to a new land or some form of imprisonment, many of them die along the way. Miserable lives await the survivors. America’s “Trail of Tears” is the sort of atrocity that Israel will soon commit. And, yes, that decision will bankrupt Israel, both morally and financially. Americans will not fund this next, dark chapter in Israel’s history. We can be sold on funding Israel’s “defense”. We won’t be sold on funding its expansion by way of ethnic cleansing and genocide. Israel needs to stand down before it implodes.
I hope Hamas will surrender before that happens, but if not, death and miserable lives await either way. I'd rather break the cycle and give subsequent generations a better future than do this again and again and again.
Please note: this is the last time I will tolerate the word "genocide" being applied to what Israel is doing. If you persist on bringing that patently false rhetoric here, I'll need to block.
The way I think about any part of the war against Gaza/Hamas/whatever is that there can be no peace without security against attack. That can happen in many ways--through peace treaties, through working toward common goals, though building community, though allies--but all require a willing partner, which Hamas is not--not to mention Hezbollah and the other clowns in the terrorist car--and the rest of the world makes Israel the Jew of the nations. Is invading Gaza City a good idea? I have no idea. If it results in quicker peace for all, more security, and fewer deaths in the long run, sure. But it's always "compared to what?" and we don't have a comparison. We only have the hope that this course will work. Netanyahu is a terrible person, but that fact is not actually relevant to this. Neither would his being a good person.
All of which is to say that I can neither applaud nor condemn this. I don't know enough and war is, by definition, not about morality, but about survival.
But what I really found interesting was your exploration of the power of the group--the Solomon Asch work. During the 1950s, a number of sociologists and social-psychologists worked on the question of why good people do very bad things, sparked by the actions of ordinary Germans during the Shoah. Asch's work was part of that--the power of the group. So was Milgrom's obedience to authority. So was Erving Goffman's work on micro-interactions.
What you describe is so deeply relevant to everything we are living through--not only as Jews, but in this increasingly authoritarian country. And there is another problem--somethings those who stand up are heard and people say "thank you." And sometimes they are shunned and rejected. Aside from the personal pain, if one is trying to effect change, that rejection can make things worse. So speaking out so that the people claiming a wrong length can see the line's actual length is tricky.
Anyway, thanks for this--it was terrific food for thought on two subjects that have been very much on my mind.
Thank you. I have been feeling so exiled from any and all of the communities where i once felt at home. so alone. But you have articulated what is in my heart.
Very powerful. Thanks Elissa.
Never alone, Elissa—I’m in agreement here.
Yes. You articulated a difficult-to-express, but fundamental, important and legitimate truth.
Yes, Elissa! I agree with you 100%! So does my husband Jeff Olenick. So that means we agree with you 200%! Every single word. You are far from alone. Thank you so much!
Completely agree.
Brilliant discussion!
The idea that Israel drives international Jew-hatred is absurd and makes my head explode. What, were things so wonderful for Jews before 1948? Israel is an excuse for Jew-haters, not the cause of their hatred.
Brilliant.
Elissa, I'm one of your 98% people, in that I agree with you 98% of the time. So here's one of my 2% disagreements. To say, " I don’t believe for a moment that I’m qualified to call the shots for Israel" doesn't make sense to me. An anti-Zionist could say, "I feel neutral about Oct 7 because I'm not in Gaza and don't believe I'm qualified to judge Hamas and its tactics." Of course, we can have opinions, no matter where we live. And while I agree with your points that no other country is discussed as "delegitimized," I think it's appropriate to have an opinion about an action in which one country is forcibly transferring the entire population of another country's largest city. There's so much evidence that Netanyahu has been prolonging this war for personal reasons and, also for personal reasons, giving into the agenda of the far right in his government. Finally, as Americans who basically fund this war with our tax dollars, why should we not have an opinion about this devastating new chapter?
The thing is, what should Netanyahu do now instead? Withdraw, leave Hamas in place, and greenlight another cycle of spending billions to rebuild before the next round? I know Hamas is weakened now, but it will recoup if left in control.
I side with 2.5 million Israelis who want the war to end. I'm not sure there's any way to completely defeat Hamas, but even so, most of their top people have already been killed. How many more civilians in Gaza will be killed, displaced or malnourished to defeat an enemy that I'm not sure is defeatable? How long can we support the policies of Netanyahu and the right wing of his govt? What becomes of these people when Jared Kushner creates the Riveria on the Mediterranean?
America gets “delegitimized” all the time. The far right may be triggered by “CRT”, the 1619 Project, etc. . But, it’s all true and it won’t be erased.
Whoa. Yes. Thank you!
The man who commented on your Facebook post is right. When people are subjected to mass, militarized forced migration, whether to a new land or some form of imprisonment, many of them die along the way. Miserable lives await the survivors. America’s “Trail of Tears” is the sort of atrocity that Israel will soon commit. And, yes, that decision will bankrupt Israel, both morally and financially. Americans will not fund this next, dark chapter in Israel’s history. We can be sold on funding Israel’s “defense”. We won’t be sold on funding its expansion by way of ethnic cleansing and genocide. Israel needs to stand down before it implodes.
I hope Hamas will surrender before that happens, but if not, death and miserable lives await either way. I'd rather break the cycle and give subsequent generations a better future than do this again and again and again.
Please note: this is the last time I will tolerate the word "genocide" being applied to what Israel is doing. If you persist on bringing that patently false rhetoric here, I'll need to block.
Spot on. As always. Thank you!